An Interview With Abby Wambach
By Matilda Fletcher and Dylan O'Donnell
Matilda Fletcher and Dylan O’Donnell interviewed Abby Wambach via Zoom. Abby Wambach is a soccer icon, speaker, New York Times Best Seller and activist for equality and inclusion. Abby is a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist & FIFA World Cup Champion. After winning the Women’s World Cup in 2015, Abby retired as one of the most dominant players in the history of women’s soccer. A true leader on and off the field, Abby is dedicating this next chapter of her career to fighting for equality and inclusion across industries.
During their discussion, Abby talked about the definition and meaning of diversity and inclusion, and about her experiences as an activist. She also described the need for more diversity and inclusion on soccer teams, especially the national team, and what can be done to help.
Matilda:
OK my first question is, “What does diversity mean to you?”
Abby:
I love this question because I do a lot of work in the corporate world trying to get more diversity at tables where big decisions are made. The boardroom tables, and executive level positions. If those tables are not full of, Black, and Brown, and trans, and gay, and any marginalized or minority, person, then every idea or product that comes from those tables, will have bias. Now here’s the thing, this is what I’ve just been thinking about recently, and I haven’t figured it totally out yet, but “diversity” and “inclusion”, are these buzzwords. So in the corporate world, Everyone’s talking about ”diversity” and “inclusion” but really what we’re talking about is representation. Because, “diversity” is an inherent centering of white men. So, what does diversity mean? By what standard and by comparison are we, is that the word that really truly fits my mind. And I’m not 100% sure because, I want to be, on the outside of a center of male conversation. Yes it’s important we have progress, progress is slow, so we do need words, that people can understand and make sure that we all have an understanding of what we’re trying to do here. But I think representation is more of a declusive word.
So in terms of diversity and inclusion, the way I would explain diversity and inclusion is: “Diversity” means hiring a marginalized, let’s say trans person, to your organization. “Inclusion” means, making sure that that trans person has a bathroom that they feel safe going to the bathroom in.
So you need both, you cannot have one without the other. Otherwise it’s just, if you’re just going for diversity, then that to me is signaling that it’s a checking-of-the-box exercise that, in the end, will never work. Because if you’re not making the marginalized, or the less represented people feel included, then there will never be this energy in any group. So, you have to have inclusion when you’re talking about diversity, and I think that bigger picture I don’t want to be talking about, I want to be beyond where we are. So yes, we are talking about diversity.
Dylan:
Sure. So a question I have is, how is your experience with diversity changed over the years you played professionally?
Abby:
I love this interesting question. Our Women's National Team is a fully female team. When we talk about it on the national team level, we talk about the idea of equality, because we're on an all-women's team. And when you are on an all women's team there's no complication for, or discussion that's necessary, to have diversity in terms of female to male.
However, when we're talking about Black and Brown and any kind of other than white person, that is something that I think our national team has struggled, truly struggled, to understand. As a captain for many years, I was always trying to pressure US Soccer to go into more urban areas to go into more Black and Brown populated areas to find great talent and players. But the problem with soccer from the youth level all the way up, is that it's a pay-to-play system. So you need to have money, and historically when you go into the urban areas of big cities, it's just hard, and I think that you find that the women's national team is interesting, in the psychology of racism in our country. I think our women's national team has almost played right into the hands of a regular person watching sports on television. We were a “palatable” enough team, because we had enough white folks.
Again, and I think that that is a really hard truth for me to talk about and a hard truth to swallow, because I believe that our national team is such a symbol of freedom and hope. Yes, there have been Black and Brown women who have played soccer for our country, but mostly it's been dominated by Caucasian white women, and that needs to change. So we need to start developing programming, from the beginning from youth soccer, making sure that we are holding ourselves to the standard of how many Black and Brown people are Americans in this country. There should absolutely be more playing for our full national team. And over time, I'm hoping to see that change.
Matilda:
Have you ever encountered exclusion, and you probably have so what did you say or do? And when you had that experience what feelings did it bring up, during, or after the situation?
Abby:
I think that being a gay woman, I’m marginalized in a few different ways, so yes I have felt excluded. There's been many and hundreds of times that I have felt that way. And unfortunately, when you are not in a position of power as a white male is, in our world, you know when you are in that position, because when you're not, you have a tendency to figure out ways to cope with that reality. It's only until recently, that I started to get really honest with myself, in terms of my own internalized racism in terms of my own internalized misogyny, because I was raised at a time and place where sometimes people were saying racist jokes or saying sexist jokes in front of me. And I literally was laughing along, because I didn't know any better. I didn't understand what it all meant, you know, and I think that getting really true and honest with myself about my own internalized misogyny and racism based on where I was raised, the year in which I was raised, and what was happening in our country during that time; those are forming, forming times.
You all are getting raised and growing up in a totally different time. So your consciousness and your understanding of other is totally going to be totally different. That's why we always say that children are our future, because you all are experiencing the world in a totally different way. So, in terms of exclusion, I remember from the very beginning, I was playing on a boys’ soccer team, because at the time there weren't good enough girls’ club elite level teams. There was no ECNL or Academy teams. So I had to play for the boys’ teams, and every single time I was one of the best players on the team. And every single time that the teams would line up, and the boys would pick the teams, they would pick me last. Every single time. There's a way to deal with this kind of thing. I just always told myself, “You know what, I'm going to put my head down, and I'm going to kick their butts on the field. And I'm going to make them feel really sorry.”
But now in my maturity and my older age, I realized that not everybody has that ability, not everybody has the access to showing them right so many human beings on the planet have to literally swallow, day after day after day exclusion, or prejudice or racism or sexism blatant. And it's not fair. And it's not okay. Though I responded the way that I did, I don't expect other people to have to respond the way that I did. Just recently, in fact, I'll give you another story before we move on to the next question: My wife Glennon and I went to a bank, and we were signing this paperwork, trying to figure out, you know, money stuff kind of an intense adult stuff. And they handed us this paperwork and it, and the top of the paperwork it said, “husband and wife.” And because my wife came out four years ago, she was married to a man who had three children. So she lived a straight life for 40+ years, and I have lived a gay life for most of my adult life for 20 years. So, when they handed us this paperwork, I had been in the business of explaining and rationalizing and almost laughing, that kind of treatment away, so I didn't cry. And over time, these kinds of things, it kind of dulls your senses or you turn off the emotion, so you don't get your feelings hurt. And my wife was incensed, she was so upset. She just said out loud, she said, “This is ridiculous and it needs to change.” And she was right. And I remember getting in the car and being like, I can't, I'm outspoken. But when it comes to something that is so deep, and then it's been happening my whole life, not just exclusion but just trauma.
It was so interesting to see how the two of us responded to it, because when you are constantly put in a position where you're experiencing stuff like this and these hard feelings, you have to armor up, right? You have to like thicken your skin on some level to survive. And my wife's skin is super thin because she just doesn't have any patience for that right, and I just appreciated that so much, and it made me realize how easy it is to let harm harmful words, lie, because you've just been hearing them your whole life, like, “Oh yeah I don't get upset about that.” And if you were to get really honest with yourself, it's just like, actually it is upsetting. I just choose to not pay attention to it. Then, do you have a positive, positive outcome? Yes, yes. So I think for me, whenever I think about any of the times where I've felt excluded or, or not given the same opportunity. I am inherently a problem solver, instead of a problem point router. And I think that that's just a personality trait of mine that I'm really proud of. So yes, you know, in terms of the boys’ teams, like I said, the way that I would solve that problem is I would show them on the field, how sorry they were for picking me last, because it was just an embarrassment. It was an on-purpose embarrassment. Because I was a girl and they were a boy like they had a penis and I had a vagina and it's like, “Come on boys, like grow up. And I'll show you why you should grow up, because we're gonna beat your butts.” And then you know the story about the bank, you know this solution of course.
This is why it's so important to remember our socialization and not staying silent. Because here's the thing: When Glennon spoke up, and she solved that problem, they fixed it. They fixed their paperwork for the entire bank. So the next day a couple that goes in there is going to look at the paperwork, and they're going to say, “Oh, they're inclusive here.” Right. And, you know, all the street people are not going to know any different. They're gonna look down at the paper and it's gonna say spouse spouse or partner partner, whatever they've chosen. And they're gonna be like, “Okay partner one, partner two,” just so we can figure it out. But there's so many old and antiquated ways of doing things, especially in the financial world. You know, when you guys get older, you can fix it too.
Matilda:
What would you do differently if you had if that had happened today?
Abby:
I think, especially with those boys, I think that I've missed a lot of different opportunities with them to help them become better, because when we're talking about inclusivity and exclusivity, when you don't say something, when you have been excluded and you say nothing, it is not a one-way liberation. You have to say something because what's happening is you're putting yourself in a cage. And you're also putting those who are excluding you in a cage, as well, in the very cage that keeps them safe, that keeps them there in their minds feeling like they are the white supremacists that they are, that they do hold the power.
So these boys right like if I can go back and say “You know what? You guys pick me last every time. It's a stupid choice, because I'm good. And you shouldn't do it. It hurt. It hurts my feelings, and it's not okay, just because I'm a girl.” If I were to have done that I would have freed myself, which is ultimately the most important thing, but I also would have started a conversation in those boys’ minds. They would have gone home with their parents, they would have had the thought process inside of themselves. So when we're talking about racism or sexism like these huge things that create separation and division, we have to talk about those that are committing the acts. Those that are offending us are also in these cages, are also thinking that they are not free, thinking that they have the power. Boys are not free, thinking that they have power over women just because [of their genitals]. White people are not free just because they think that they run and own the world. They need to free themselves from their own sexism and their own racism that we have all been raised in, that we all have, you know that we have eaten the tacit toxicity of it all.
Matilda:
“What would you have done to shift the understanding of diversity and inclusion?”
Abby:
I think I kind of just answered that a little bit. I just think it's so important that when we're talking about social justice and diversity and inclusion and inclusivity and exclusivity that for the most part, right, white men want things to stay the same. And the reason why they want things to stay the same is because they are privileged in ways that they don't even know, that they don't even understand. And the rest of us want things to change, because we feel on a moment to moment basis that marginalization, that less than, that worthiness complex, that imposter syndrome. We feel all of these things, because the system has been set up for them to stay in power. And the interesting thing if you actually think about it, right, it's almost like a pyramid, that those who are in power are actually fewer in number than the rest of us at the bottom. There's more of us down here than there are on top. There are many many more of us, and how, if they are fewer in power, how are they staying in power over the rest of us? Well, it's a very easy equation, one that has been repeated over and over and over again. In order for fewer people to stay in power, they have to put fear into the hearts of the majority of those that are in power over. Does that make sense? They have to put fear and make each other down here think it's the other group’s fault, think it’s the other group’s problem, fear the other group. And so the anger doesn't point up. If we could all just band together down here, we would be able to flip power, and, like my wife says, burn it to the ground, and then rebuild something more beautiful and true and diverse and inclusive.
Dylan:
Sure. So this kind of follows up on my first question. How do you think diversity in soccer will change in seven to 10 years, or when we're adults?
Abby:
I love that question, because I think that so much is happening right now. You know, I don't know if you guys know Megan Rapinoe, but she's a former teammate of mine and a current national team player. She was one of the very first other pro athletes to kneel in symbolism and in unity with Colin Kaepernick. Now, she caught a lot of flack for that. From her coach at the time from the US Soccer Federation, and from the world who didn't agree with her kneeling for the national anthem. Because Megan was brave enough to take any knee rather than a stand, she showed the world what was going to be what our national team’s non-negotiables were. And because I'm talking about this triangle of power, those who are marginalized have to stick together. Because she has a lot of experience being a gay woman, she understands that we have to stick together. Because she's one of the team's leaders, I believe that our national team is headed in a very great direction. In terms of social justice we're gonna put all the Black women at the forefront, and they are going to lead us because us white people don't know what the heck we're talking about. And we're gonna follow their lead, like we, we should be following Black women's leads all the time. We should have been doing it from the beginning. And it's only, I think, up until just now that as white folks have understood that black women, it's this idea of proximity to power I don't know if you guys have ever heard of it. But let's say there's a white man, and in terms of the Venn diagram (Do you guys know the Venn diagram is? It's where something overlaps.) So if you have a white man, and the Venn diagram of, who has proximity to his power, which kind of person has no proximity to a white man's power, for the most part?
Matilda:
A Black woman or a woman of color.
Abby:
Absolutely. So men cross over there but Black men crossover their Venn diagram with their maleness and their gender and white women cross over that Venn diagram, because they married them. So when you think about programming and people who are doing the work and trying to do the work in the right way, and they are not in any way shape or form biased, because of that proximity to power, you look at all of the women of color. They are doing it, and they have been doing it without getting any privilege. I don't know what the question was, but I think I answered something.
Matilda:
How do you think diversity and inclusion can shift for more positive equality?
Abby:
Well it's interesting because I think as we evolve as a human race. I think that the labels are the things that get stopped up and get us confused at what we're trying to do down here. So, as the gay community expands, we're having, you know the LGBTQIA plus, like there's so many things that are happening and, and the truth is, as soon as you know, my wife--she's also a speaker--she tells this funny story that this woman stood up at one of her events and said, “Glennon, I don't understand. Like all of a sudden it feels like everybody's so gay all of a sudden.” Glennon laughed, and she said, “Well, I can understand this.” Here's the thing. It wasn't until just recently that gayness was legally allowed, right? Gay marriage was legally allowed in this country just a few years ago. Just a few years ago. And so what that does is it brings people out of a closet, a closet of I’m never going to talk about this gayness thing that I have, and the kind of gay that you or queer that you are. For me, it's like it's so incredible to see the, the group of us LGBTQIA folks, expand and grow and get bigger, right, non-binary, gender non-conforming, all of these new words that were not a part of my upbringing. It was just like you were gay. You were a lesbian. You were bisexual, and you were trans.
Your generation is just so much more accepting, because there weren't laws in place that were restricting people's behavior. So, my wife said in the event, she said, “You know, it's not that gayness is contagious. It's that freedom is contagious, and the more freedom we give people the more they will be theirfully human selves. And that is all we should ever want.” It is all we should ever ask and want our children to be right, it's not, don't be a carbon copy of me, be exactly who you need to be in all of your gayness and all of your straightness and all of your whatever-ness, it is. So I think that diversity and inclusion. We've come a very far way in a few short years. It was in jeopardy. If Donald Trump was going to get re-elected to office. My son, our 17-year-old son happens to be gay, and we were really nervous about his possible inability to married, the person that he would want to marry in his future.
So yeah, I mean, we have a far way to cover. Because, you know, thinking about how many human beings actually voted for Donald Trump. It made me really sad that the world could watch that police officer step on George Floyd's neck and still vote for an administration that wouldn't denounce white supremacy and wouldn't denounce these murders, because that's what they are, from happening. So we do have a long way to go. And I feel before this election this is going to be kind of a weird thing to say, but before this election, I held the belief that people were never as bad or as good as we think. But when you put enough fear into the heart of people. They do weird things. And it's been an on-purpose campaign that the Trump administration has run for the last four and a half, five years. I'm just glad that they are getting out of there, and we can go and try to continue to fix the divisions of this country and to try to make people understand that we are supposed to be a United States of America, It hasn't really felt like that; it has felt like a Divided States of America. And that makes me super sad, because listen, there's no person on the planet that was more proud to represent this country than me; oh man, fiercely proud. But the last few years, months, especially, have been really really hard to see and witness, and hopefully you all will grow up to be the best politicians in the world, or do something to change it for the better.
Matilda:
And then, what would you tell middle school girls now about exclusion. And what would you have wanted to know about inclusion as a middle school?
Abby:
So this is a thing that we talked to our daughters about--if you are feeling excluded. Okay, now let's just talk to middle schoolers. Let's say you're being excluded from the lunch table or your friends are hanging out and you're feeling excluded, some of that stuff is just growing up stuff, right, some of that stuff is friends are allowed to hang out with each other when you're not around. That's okay. Right.
But when somebody is excluding you based on something that is not your fault: being the ethnicity that you are, the gender that you are, the person that you are, something that is not your fault. That makes you feel horrible, like on a deep level from a humanistic perspective. And something that Glennon talks about too that I'm so fascinated about and into right now is that rather than eating that sickness and that badness inside and not talking about it, you need to talk about it. So you might not have to talk about to the person who delivered the badness to you. You have to talk about it to somebody, you have to talk about it with your friends or your parents, your parents are going to be probably the best option here, because they would understand whatever kind of exclusion is happening. Then if this is something that you feel, if repeated to somebody else would hurt somebody else, if you feel like this is something that could hurt somebody else also, and you feel bad, don't not say something because you don't want them to feel bad. Don't not say something because you don't want to hurt their feelings or rock the boat or make things awkward. Right?
If somebody has gone out of their way to make you awkward, feel awkward or make you feel bad, and you can help the next person who might experience a similar thing, saying something is almost always the best case scenario, even if it turns into an awkward, or even a fight, yelling fight, whatever. Women especially have a harder time saying things. A reason why men have the, you know, quote unquote, they think that they have a better business acumen, is because men stab each other in the front. Women have a tendency to stab each other in the back. Which means, when somebody does something to you, and they've turned their back, you're going to talk about them, right? It doesn't have to be that way. If you start from a young age and learn from a young age that something feels wrong something that just happened--in my family, we call it hot and cold, warm and cold. If something somebody has done makes you feel bad, or kind of cold inside. You’ve got to talk about it, you got to get it out. And also, a lot of times the reason why things make you feel bad inside isn't because there's something wrong with you. It's because there's something wrong with them. Does that make sense?
Dylan:
I know that you spend a lot of time standing up for equal pay between men and women, is there any advice you want to give to other people to find the courage to stand up for themselves?
Abby:
Yeah, so I think that it happens right from the beginning. From the time that we're born, little girls are told a story, that we should be taking a little bit less than the boys and that we don't deserve the same amount as the boys. The boys get more, then boys get fed first, the boys, the boys, the boys. I think if, and by the way this is it, this happens without people noticing. So if it happens at school, or a teacher just calls on the boys first and you start noticing you raise your hand and be like, “Hey you’re calling the boys first all the time, can you call the girls now?”
Sometimes we have to amplify each other's voices, let's say, let's say, Matilda you’re in class, you answer something, and a boy interrupts you and finishes the answer. Some other girl in that class needs to amplify your voice because sometimes it's like, “Oh, that felt bad I don't want to say, why did they interrupt me? Why did they steal my thunder?” Another girl has to amplify your voice, you have to stick together.
In terms of equal pay, from the time that you start working, whether it's babysitting or walking the dog or a newspaper round, whatever jobs you guys do. Always ask, whoever your employer is, “Is this the exact same that the boys make?” You have to condition yourself to ask those hard questions from the beginning, because what happens is girls don't ask those questions in the beginning. And when you become an adult and you're out of college, you're a woman, you're applying for your first jobs, and that negotiation period is the most impactful thing for women for the long term of their career, and they don't know it, because what often happens is when you get a job, you get set into that price range of a salary, and that salary will go up percentage points. So if let's say you start here, you're gonna grow to here, right, but if you start here [gestures lower], you're growing here [again lower]. And those end of end of life retirement dollars for women, women often have to work I think almost 12 years longer than a man who has done the exact same job as for their entire career. Women have to work for 12 more years. That is horrible.
So my recommendation for y'all is to ask the hard questions in the beginning. Is this the same that you're paying men? I just had to do it the other day. ESPN called, they offered a contract to me to be a host for a show, and many other athletes are going to be hosting the same show. And so I went back to them and I said, “So there are other male athletes that are hosting the show. And I want to make sure that I'm not being paid one cent less than all the other men.” Because a woman was running this operation and as a producer, she was making sure that everybody was making the same amount. That was her. That was her thing.
Matilda:
Is there anything else you'd want to tell middle school girls?
Abby:
Well I guess I would say this, and I'll end with this and I'll let you guys get back to your family life. Not many kids are told that the way to become successful is you're going to have to go through a lot, a lot, and I'm talking about 1,000s of awkward, hard, terrifying moments. And I call these moments “level up moments.” So, what I mean by level up moments, I go from my girls’ rec league team to go play on a boys’ team, because I just was too good of a player, and I needed to go play in the boys. Like I said there weren't any good enough travel girls’ teams at the time. This is like back in the 80s, And my first practice, I was terrified. Why would I do this to myself? I thought it sounded fine, and you show up and you feel like you don't belong. You feel like you're an imposter and feel like you're the worst one there. And these level up moments have to come with a promise to yourself that you are going to stay for one more day.
Another level up moment: going from middle school to high school. That'll be happening, or for you all going from, you know, fourth grade to middle school. It's going to be scary, you're gonna have some feelings and some thoughts about that. But the only way you get to be successful--and this isn't about money or fame or anything--the only way you can have a good life is if you keep challenging yourself to show up for the level up moments, and to stay.
When I got called into the national team my first practice. I was the very worst soccer player on the field, 100%, every single one of them would agree. Right. The ball was moving, I couldn't, I just wasn't fast enough, I wasn't strong enough. I was 21 years old. These are all like veterans like, awesome, awesome, awesome athletes. And I just remember being back in my hotel room that night just going, God, I want to go home. I want to fake an injury. I want to pretend somebody has died. But I realized, this is the moment. This is the decider. This is this life for you Abby's gonna go one way or the other. And so this was the level up moment, and you are going to come across tons of these level up moments, moments that make you better, even when you feel worse in the moment. You can't imagine how can this make me better. I feel uncomfortable, I feel terrified, and this is obviously like this is not anything that you're in danger about. Right? I'm not talking about danger situations; I'm talking about life and growth situations. I think it's super cool that you guys are, are having these kind of conversations at your age, and thanks for including me on it. Truly. Do you guys have any other questions?
Dylan:
Not at the moment, thank you so much!
Matilda:
Thank you!
