Interview with Danielle Forward
Danielle is a Product Designer at Facebook, designing for emerging markets on Facebook Connectivity. She was born and raised in Santa Rosa, California, and moved to San Francisco, where she graduated as valedictorian with her BFA in Interaction Design from California College of the Arts. During college she had two internships at Facebook, both on separate teams for Internet.org. Danielle is also the founder of Natives Rising, a website dedicated to highlighting Native American role models in tech and fostering mentorship connections for Natives in tech, design, and Native students.
Danielle Forward
I'm Danielle Forward. I'm the founder of Natives Rising, which is an organization that is dedicated to economically empowering Indigenous people in the tech industry. So the mission is to bring more Indigenous people out of marginalization through the empowerment of tech careers. What that means is we foster community networking and mentorship for existing Indigenous people that are in the industry already, as well as providing support community networking, mentorship, and job placement, and training. Hopefully, soon, for indigenous people in communities that may have never heard of the tech industry, or what these jobs are, what they need, their names, and not know about the opportunities that exist with tech, especially, without even needing college degree sometimes. That's the brief intro. My background is technically in user experience design, interaction design, specifically, which is a very, if you're familiar with IDEO design thinking, very entrepreneurial, which is what had me start Natives Rising in the first place.
Matilda Fletcher
My first question is, what is your definition of including someone?
Danielle Forward
I think it's being open to considering that there are other points of view that are also true that you may not hold. It means including their point of view, their voice, their perspective, the way they see the world, and being willing to include that in truth, whether or not that aligns with what you yourself believe sometimes. It doesn't mean that you need to agree with them, necessarily. That's never going to happen 100% of the time, but it does mean that you give acknowledgement that what they're saying is valid.
Matilda Fletcher
That's very interesting. What is an encounter you've had with racism? What did you say or do? And when you have that experience, what feelings did it bring up in you during and after the situation?
Danielle Forward
Tuning back into all my experiences, some of them were interesting, because some of them were ambiguous. For example, most of the time, people don't know what I am, ethnically, racially. So I get an interesting kind of response from people, because they don't know what I am. I remember one time, this guy in a grocery store, literally in my hometown of Santa Rosa, which is Pomo nation. So I'm Indigenous Pomo. Pomo Nation is the northern northern Bay area: Santa Rosa up to Cloverdale-ish, which is what my official tribe is. I'm enrolled in the Cloverdale Rancheria, but this guy at a grocery store was like, 'Oh, you look like you look exotic. Where are you from?' And it's like, wow, really, I'm from here, literally here. And I think it's the assumption that Indigenous people don't exist, and they're just not around you or can't possibly be from here --it's erasure.
It contributes to the myth that Indigenous people don't exist in the present day, which has always had me feel really small and minimized, especially growing up when I didn't have very many tools to speak about it. I didn't know how to explain it to people, I didn't really know how to talk about it or advocate for this existence. Especially when I was the only one there or the only one around. Sometimes things like that will happen or stereotypes might happen; people might say dumb things, which would make me not want to disclose that I'm Native or Native American for the longest time.
I didn't even talk about it until I developed Natives Rising actually, which I was 28/29. For the longest time, because I didn't know what to say to people, because I just felt angry, right? Like, rightfully so if somebody says a stereotype about an identity that you hold can be really frustrating. But you also realize like that, while your your frustration is valid, you don't want to say something. You don't want to, you know. My personal philosophy is to not fight fire with fires to take the high road, or to educate. That's what I prefer. So, it took me a long time to be able to feel like I could have those conversations and could dismantle stereotypes.
Matilda Fletcher
What do you think made you feel like you could talk about being Native American?
Danielle Forward
It was knowledge; it was reading books. And it is as simple as that. It was reading Indigenous history. I read a few books in particular, that were just completely world changing for me, because what they did, what they allowed for me, was to realize that there was nothing wrong with me or my family. And that the history was very clear, in terms of what happened to all Indigenous communities in North America, and in New Zealand, and Australia and other places that had similar types of colonization. That, you know, none of it was our fault that there was no, we were, you know, somehow lesser than, and there were a lot of very intentional targeted programs, literally called extermination from the US government, and so many of the policies were incredibly destructive, and contributed to so much inherited trauma across all Indigenous communities that we still feel today in our families, in so many ways, financially, psychologically, emotionally, relationships, social, relationally.
That was really freeing, because one of the biggest things that is problematic for me, one of the narratives that is problematic for me, is that there is a myth of meritocracy, especially in the US that the story that you are, where you are because of you, and that's it, and either you worked hard, or you didn't work hard and end of the story. And that's problematic for me, because that's not really the story that history tells. Privilege has been accrued, things aren't equitable or equal. Different resources have been accrued by different groups, for different reasons. Those have been historically documented very well, it's very clear how certain groups ended up with what, and it is just, in my view, plain false to think that everybody has a starting point. It doesn't negate the fact that we each have agency right and our own contribution to make the best of what we have. That's still true. You know, but I wouldn't say it's as simple as meritocracy on its own.
Matilda Fletcher
Back to your encounter with racism, what would you have done differently if you had had that encounter recently?
Danielle Forward
I haven't had them in a while. Like the one grocery store? I don't know what I would do with that now. Because I think sometimes it's just so shocking, that I don't know what to do in the moment with it. And sometimes, sometimes you got to check in with yourself, right? With your energy. Usually, it can be a pretty big burden to feel like you have to explain all of history to every person you encounter right, that might not have the same level of knowledge that you do about your particular group, your particular ethnicity, or your race. And so sometimes, it's a lot of emotional labor; if you don't have it in you that day, don't feel like you need to educate the entire populace. Because you're one person, and self care matters. That's the first thing that I would think about. You and your feelings matter. You don't have to feel like you have to educate the world all the time. Maybe you can say nothing. You can walk away. You can, whatever you feel like in the moment. I think what I actually said was, 'Oh, I'm from here.' And I just answered the question, and that was it. But I don't know. It would matter what mood I was in. And if I was willing to, like, take time to educate or not, or if I'm in a hurry, I'm like, this person's knowledge isn't my problem necessarily. So, I might just say, 'I'm from here.' That's it.
Matilda Fletcher
What would you teach middle schoolers about racism? And what would you have wanted to know about racism in middle school?
Danielle Forward
It's really tough as a kid, because a lot of what you are given, has already been selected. Usually, depending on where you go to school, it's usually already been curated and selected by--I don't know who determines the curriculum in public schools, but whoever those people are. Sometimes you might not always have the fortune of having parents or friends or people that are willing to educate you about the different histories of different races and ethnicities in this country. But I would definitely encourage, especially middle schoolers, as people are developing their identities.
For me, what was most liberating was reading about the history of how, how was whiteness created? That was invented? Where did it come from? What were the reasons why colonization was a thing? What were they after? What were the elite after? Why did some of the poor Irish and poor English come here? You know, the Irish were colonized, too. So thinking, just reading, just learning about the history of what, how things came to be how they were, is just so so so empowering, and incredibly grounding for each individual in their own identity to really make sense of why things are the way they are, and to really ground yourself in where you are, where you sit in the fabric of humanity and how your family came to be the way it is.
For me, it was really freeing to see that. It explained a lot for me. It explained how my mom is the way she is, and how my family is the way it is, which explains how I became the way I am. Just getting those answers, when you get to look back in the context of your family, how they got here, what the policies were, how that changed, how certain groups lived, what they could do, what jobs they could have. The amount that that matters is huge. It really just goes it just goes not noticed.
What I hope is that is that when I was in school, it's not like I was particularly drawn towards history. I think in certain schools, they don't do the best job of making it sound awesome. Which is why I encourage you to read books that are outside like, reading books like Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, A Different Mirror, which is a multicultural history of the United States, Indigenous Peoples History of United States. I think, um, People's History of the United States is good. There's a kid version too, meaning K to 12, so it's definitely Middle School appropriate. Um, but just really learning the real history, because in not necessarily believing that just the stuff you learn in school is it, because there's just so much to know, so many books to read, and the more that you know, and discover the more that you can make sense of things, and the more empowering it is.
Matilda Fletcher
What would you tell middle schoolers about Thanksgiving? What would you have wanted to know about Thanksgiving in middle school?
Danielle Forward
That's always like a really uncomfortable time of year for Native people, especially in school; it made me uncomfortable, because, to me--and this is my story and not every Native person will say that they everybody has a different point of view, this is just my story--my story about it is that it' trying to create a more positive narrative of the Foundation of America that, frankly, in my opinion, just isn't true. And as it happens, like the country was created through a lot of warfare and force, of forced assimilation and literal extermination of Indigenous people. And that is not the best story to tell, right?
When you want to get a population together to be patriotic, you don't want to lead with, 'yeah, and we got this country because we exterminated a bunch of indigenous people.' That's not very compelling. And that's not going to make people excited to be an 'American,' right? So I get it; I get the manufactured narrative. However, I get I get why that exists. But it is not factual. And, I think that's important for people to know.
And I'm assuming that it's true that you could still be patriotic and believe in the supposed promises of this country, while still accepting and knowing about and doing something about the actual history of what happened with Indigenous people in this country, and accepting the truth about where this holiday came from. So just as with everything, I would encourage people to actually research and learn about what happened, where did that come from? I can't recite the real story of Thanksgiving by heart necessarily, but there's a fantastic book by Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz. It's very short. It's just called, I think it's called 'All the real Indians died and 20 other myths about Native Americans.' And it includes the story of Thanksgiving in there. It also talks about Columbus. So there are 20 different myths that she goes over. And her summary of Thanksgiving is just -- I mean, everything is so well researched, and she offers a really neutral but succinct account of all the myths. And it's just a great introduction to just learning more about Indigenous people, especially around stereotypes and narratives like Thanksgiving, so I'd encourage everyone to read it while you eat delicious food. I'm still a fan of the delicious food. I will still eat the pie. You know, I'm like, I will accept the pie. But not the fake narrative, but I will accept the pie.
Matilda Fletcher
What would you tell middle schoolers about National Native American Heritage Month? Well, do you want to know, when you were in middle school?
Danielle Forward
I wish I heard more about it was in middle school, I think things have gotten more inclusive in general, which is great. It's gotten even more okay to be Indigenous and talk about it. I would love it if it was an opportunity for people to think about, to learn about Indigenous people, to learn about history, to learn about Indigenous issues, to try to learn what you don't know. Make it like a theme. I love books. So I'll just like, 'Oh, it's this month. So I'm going to read a bunch of books on this theme.' For me, it's like, digging into, like, finishing 'There, There' by Tommy Orange. Or, you could even make it fun. You could read some fiction, like, authors that are Indigenous, but it's fiction, or you could buy from Indigenous businesses. You could do something to support the communities. If you live in the Bay Area, supporting Wahpepah’s Kitchen that just opened, or the only Ohlone restaurant, [mak-'amhamum], which I can never pronounce their name, but they're finally opening in Berkeley again. So things like that, just supporting learning, however you like, what feels most alive to you in terms of what you'd want to do with your time.
Matilda Fletcher
How would you describe Natives Rising to middle schoolers?
Danielle Forward
I would say: We're an organization that empowers Indigenous people to prepare for careers in Silicon Valley in tech. We're just a space that helps people reach their fullest potential in tech: mentorship, networking, community, finding jobs. We partner with companies to help people find jobs. I don't know if middle schoolers are familiar with the term accelerator, but to sum it up, we're a career accelerator for people who have never heard of the tech industry, and they're interested or people that are in the industry, and they need some help. They're like in a boot camp, and they're worried about getting a job. Or they've been taking coding classes, and they want some help networking. We just help people advance in their careers in tech.
Matilda Fletcher
What can middle schools learn from Natives Rising?
Danielle Forward
What we do is, is we really think about what companies are looking for. And I think that is also the job of the school as well. How are we setting up our students for success? And how are we defining success? And what that means, and that's a co creation, right? The student is part of defining what success looks like for them and doing something that brings them aliveness. The school should also help connect them with the reality of the market of the world--of what, what is realistic, and what there's demand for and sort of negotiate that, which is what names rising does as well. We talk to companies, and we figure out, what are companies wanting to hire for? And what are Indigenous people willing and able to do that don't have any experience in tech? Generally, I would say it's to make sure that they're top they're looking ahead at trends, at what companies are hiring for, who's hiring for what roles, how can they bring that into their curriculum? How can they expose students to that earlier on so people have a head start in terms of a lot of tech careers, and then they're just way better positioned to get a job, to go to top companies, and to ultimately have more choices.
Originally published 11/26/2021
