Interview with Wanda Holland-Greene
Matilda Fletcher
What would you want students to know about discrimination exclusion in middle school?
Ms. Holland Greene
So what would I have wanted to know when I was in middle school really long long time ago? You know, it's interesting, I feel like I learned a lot about discrimination and inclusion as an elementary school student, because I integrated a predominantly white public school in the 1970s. And my lessons about exclusion and inclusion started well before middle school. So I don't feel like I was walking around my middle school, which was a predominantly Black middle school in Brooklyn versus the predominantly white school in Queens. (These are boroughs of New York City, Queens and Brooklyn.) I feel like I learned a lot about the way schools operated in our American history in terms of segregation. And I was a part of the movement of children, who began to integrate--racially integrate--schools in New York City. So I learned a lot about systems of oppression and the ways in which education was held back from Black and Brown people as a part of Jim Crow and segregation in America.
Ms. Holland Greene
I learned that there were people who were really trying to change that and what was required are curious, respectful students and teachers who are willing to watch and listen to make sure their classrooms are safe spaces. Those are things I actually learned in elementary school. By time I got to my all, almost all Black--it used to be called junior high and instead of middle school--but by junior high school, what I knew is that there was a tremendous amount of pride in being Black. I felt that that was a big deal for all of us to feel really proud of who we were.
I learned that affinity group spaces are really important. And so it's interesting, I had this integrated space where 90% of the school in elementary school was white, and only a tiny percentage was Black. And then I went to an almost all Black--certainly mostly all kids of color--junior high school where I learned that it's okay to be in an affinity group space, if that's a place that makes you feel powerful and strong and proud.
It's not something I wish I had learned about in middle school. I guess what I'm saying is, I'm glad that I learned a lot about integration and pride and affinity groups so that by the time I got to middle school/junior high school, I felt smart, and I felt connected, and I had a successful experience. Does that make sense?
Matilda Fletcher
And what would you tell Hamlin students now about inclusion and exclusion?
Ms. Holland Greene
Oh, that's a good question, Matilda Fletcher. I would say a few things. One is that it is perfectly acceptable and appropriate to talk about race, to talk about socioeconomic status, to talk about gender, to talk about religion, to talk about all the ways in which we are different. And it is also imperative, highly important that we are curious about the ways in which those differences create power in our world.
And I think sometimes, people are more inclined to celebrate their differences, but they don't want to talk about how those differences might actually give them advantages in the world. Sometimes the way people think about it is, you know, if you have certain kinds of differences in the world, you feel like the wind is pushing you in front of you like it's pushing you, and you have to walk forward into it. There's some kinds of differences in this world, depending on where you're walking with, that wind is behind your back. And it's giving you an advantage and letting you go farther and more quickly.
When I talk with middle school children who so deeply want to belong and to feel connected and to feel loved by their friends and accepted by their friends, a lot of times they don't want to talk about what makes them different. And I think they should, because that's an important part of identity. And I also think that it gets complicated when they start talking about, "Well, hmm, does that particular skin color difference give you a privilege or an advantage? Or does that particular economic status give you a privilege or an advantage?"
People don't want to talk about that as much, because it makes people feel distant. But I think it's important that we know that conversations about inclusion and exclusion can get messy. And sometimes they hurt, but they're really important. And I don't mean hurt, like, it's supposed to be making you feel terrible, but they sometimes are uncomfortable. Like they hurt to hold them sometimes, because you have to get through a lot of emotions. But I think middle school kids need to know that it's okay to have a messy, complicated, interesting conversation, because that's how we grow and get more connected.
Matilda Fletcher
And then my second question was, how have you seen discrimination Hamlin? Have you? And how did you deal with it?
Ms. Holland Greene
So you know, so I've been the head of Hamlin for 13 years, and there have been times when people make mistakes. And I mean, adults and children make mistakes because of ignorance. I don't believe that I have seen anything at Hamlin where someone is intentionally looking to make someone else's life awful. But I have seen sometimes people who have biasies, and they don't even know those biases are operating when they make decisions. What I've seen at times is some unconscious bias, and assumptions perhaps, about what someone has or how someone feels.
One of the ways in which we see bias sometimes is in how people make assumptions about who can be their friends. And sometimes people start looking for people who like the same things they like, and that's fine, but sometimes they don't notice who they're leaving out. They might not even really be able to understand why they're not selecting that person for a friend. But I've seen sometimes exclusion in terms of people being lonely, and not feeling as connected, because friendships seem to be clustering around certain small groups of people. That doesn't happen often. But I think sometimes people are more inclined to people who are like them, it's just a natural tendency, but sometimes I've seen at Hamlin an unintentional excluding because you're just gravitating toward the people who are like you.
Sometimes it's about people who are just not aware and needing to get educated, whether they're, you know, and this isn't really exclusion, but it's just kind of microaggressions how, you know, someone is getting their hair touched all the time, or when you're in class and then reading about a Black person or studying a particular period in history, and everybody kind of thinks, you know, are you the representative of that group, whether you're Black or Asian, or both, you know, multiracial, like, you are. Those kinds of assumptions make people feel like they're outside the community, like they're on the edges, which is not kicking them out and excluding them. But when you when you don't understand someone's perspective, and when you're unintentionally disrespectful, you can make them feel like they don't belong. Does that make sense?
Matilda Fletcher
That makes a lot of sense. How have you seen inclusion at Hamlin, and what are some of your favorite examples of inclusion at Hamlin?
Ms. Holland Greene
First of all, like I said, I love seeing people who are friends who are so different from each other. Because that suggests curiosity and respect that I really want to see. And I love seeing the ways in which we think about the curriculum and books that we include in the curriculum and how we look for diversity of voices in our program.
I also see inclusion in the faculty and staff and how they work connected, whether they're in the same division or the same department. I see a lot of intention to make sure that everybody has access to information. I love seeing that we're an inclusive environment in terms of inviting people from 40 different zip codes to be at our school in terms of admission. I see inclusion in how we invite people in our financial assistance program that you don't have to be able to afford the tuition. Once you're smart, and you get admitted, we include you regardless of your family's ability to pay. And when we're doing a fundraiser at Hamlin, the big spring fundraiser, there are two different prices for it, and it allows anyone who wants to come to afford it. And I think that's inclusive, because we used to have a fundraiser where there was only one price, and if you couldn't pay it, you just didn't go and that made some people feel like they weren't included.
So I see inclusion all over, I see inclusion in terms of who's the head of the school, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, there's an African American woman at the head of our school. And that's a rare thing. In our country, for Black people, or for women, to be heads of independent schools. A third of independent schools are run by women, and a far less percentage than that are run by people of color. So I happen to represent both.
Matilda Fletcher
Would you be willing to share if you've ever experienced discrimination? And then if so, what was your first encounter and how did you deal with it? Would you deal with it differently now?
Ms. Holland Greene
You know, when I saw your question, I thought to myself, has anybody ever, like, intentionally excluded me from something on the basis of my race or gender or religion or anything? And, you know, Matilda Fletcher, I had really positive experiences in school, all through K through 12. So what I have Matilda Fletcher are tons of little like, like little pinpricks, little things that was said to me, or about me, that were like, these small little moments where it wasn't like someone was saying, "You don't belong; you can't work here." But then language suggested that I was--like maybe I was not in the right space.
So I'll give you an example. When I first became a teacher in New York City, and I taught at the school that I had attended for high school, it was a K12 school, and I was a third grade teacher there, but I had only gone to high school there. And when I used to take my third graders out to be dismissed the end of the day, often people would say, "Oh, my goodness, who are you here to pick up?" Because people thought that because of my brown skin, I must have been someone's babysitter as opposed to their daughter's teacher. Now, they didn't say, "You can't have this job, because you're Black and discrimination." So I was hired--I was in the school, do you know what I mean?
But it's moments where you just feel like, like you don't belong. When I was in 11th grade, the students at my school had to give presentations in assembly on all the holidays. And when I went to the wall to sign up for a holiday because I liked public speaking even then, Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday wasn't up there. And it wasn't at the time of Federal holiday, I don't think. I had to ask my teacher if I could write that holiday in because Groundhog Day was there. It went from like, Christmas, Hanukkah, Groundhog's Day. And I was like, "Aren't we forgetting something important in January?"
Again, did that feel like my school was not welcoming to Black people? No, but it was kind of these moments where you felt invisible, or like you were, you know, when I'm on Union Street, sometimes, and I'm shopping, I've told these stories before where people kind of, you know, either follow me around, or they tell me how much things cost, because they're operating from a stereotype that, that a Black person must be there either to steal, or even if they're not there to steal, they couldn't possibly afford anything in the store.
So I what I've experienced in my life is more microaggressions than outright discrimination. I know that's a blessing, because I know that that is not true [for everyone]. If I were male in this world, who who liked to drive, like my husband, I probably would have tons of stories on how I was stopped by the police or other kinds of things. But I don't have that experience. But my life has been really blessed, because I had parents who really taught me about race and pride and connection and love. And they also taught me how to fight in terms of justice and not just get mad--you know, do something about it. So I actually think that being an educator is a form of activism for me.
Matilda Fletcher
And my next question is, what advice would you give to encourage inclusion?
Ms. Holland Greene
Well, I would say this country was supposedly, right, built on the very idea that oppression was wrong. Ironically, right? Like you have these colonies that don't want to be oppressed by Britain anymore. You read the Declaration of Independence, and it's surprising that this country would even begin to oppress African slaves for hundreds of years, because they knew what it meant to be free and included, as opposed to entrapped and taken advantage of. So the fact that they kind of replicated the same system, and worse, it's just ironic and unfortunate.
So the first thing I want people to know is that liberty and justice for all, inclusion is built into the DNA of this country. It's not a matter of something new and innovative; it's something that we never achieve. It's like, imagine if you had maybe a Lego set or something. And you said you were going to put it together, and you just keep looking at it, and all the pieces are here, there and everywhere. It's like, we still have the pieces, I believe, the spiritual pieces, the sheer will, to put the pieces of America together.
Inclusion matters, because not only was it part of the DNA of this country, but it's how the country becomes great. When you include men, women, non binary people, gay straight, when you include Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, when you involve people of all ages, when you include people from all walks of life, in any endeavor, it gets better. Diversity is a requirement for excellence. And so when you don't include people, you're actually settling for something less. America is settling for something less than it can be when it doesn't include people and when a class of children are happening to be even by consciously or unconsciously not included, that is damaging our potential.
So I would say inclusion allows us to live more fully as human beings. It allows us to be more humane. Inclusion allows us to have more joy. It allows everyone to have a sense of belonging. And it makes anything you do so much better than anyone could ever do when you leave people out.
Matilda Fletcher
How and when should we try to work with Miss Blaesing, the new diversity and inclusion head?
Ms. Holland Greene
Well, here's the thing. 80% of her job is actually to be the lower school counselor. 20% of her job is to be the person who's working on equity and inclusion. So she's really getting her bearings--she's very experienced person, but she's new to Hamlin--and she's getting connected to the lower school. So they will see her a lot more. Not to mention that she's on the Schofield campus during our adventure year. And she's working with the adults right now, doing a lot of work with anti-bias curriculum, and she's starting affinity groups for the teachers. There's also a white anti-racist group that she's starting and leading, and she's doing a lot of work with parents. And so the students are going to probably see her less if you're in the middle school, because she's a presence for lower school--she's the most mature for the lower school. So the lower school girls will get to know her faster, and the grown ups in kindergarten through eighth grade in terms of teachers, they'll get to know her faster and the parents.
We're still trying to figure out if there will be an opportunity for connection for the middle school girls and Miss Blaesing. Right now, that's not possible because she's only one person. But we are I know you asked about Alana. Dr. Schroeder and I've been working on getting new advisors, and we are almost ready to get going in terms of advisors. Some people have volunteered because as you know, our former Alanna advisors no longer work at Hamlin, so we had to get new advisors. I hope to still be connected to the group, of course. And we have some other people who are people of color who have raised their hands to be the new advisors or facilitators for Alana.
Matilda Fletcher
Are there any other diversity and inclusion activities for students other than Alanna?
Ms. Holland Greene
Well, I think the gender and sexuality alliance is another place to discuss differences. I also know that we have always wanted students who want to talk about race, who are not people of color, to have an anti-racist group. That would be open if people wanted to do that. You know, like in the lower school, there's Alana and there's also cultural connections, which is a group for anyone who wants to join to talk about differences. If girls were interested in talking about, you know, race and differences, who are not identifying as people of color, that would be something I would welcome. I know, over the years, that has been something that Miss G, was interested in talking about, but we kind of didn't have enough people to get things started.
There were also people who were gathering last year to talk about social change. And whether it was looking at issues of gun control or other kinds of things. It's not always diversity and inclusion, per se, but it's about equity and safety in the world. I'm always open to students who want to initiate different activities and clubs. And I know Dr. Schroeder is as well. We want the students to have a voice and, you know, the student ventures, you know, who knows if someone will they, you know, be entrepreneurial and develop a product or service that allows us to give back to our community, both at Hamlin and beyond.
I also think that a lot of our service activities are rooted in our desire for equity. Our work with Hamilton Families [a transitional housing center that provides families with a living space and community while they search for housing], and I work with Lava Mae [a compassionate and altruistic nonprofit working to alleviate the suffering of individuals experiencing homelessness]. I work with the San Francisco Food Bank, there's so many ways in which we don't necessarily think about those activities as ones that are about diversity and inclusion, but they are because what we're saying is, "I see you. I understand your need. I can learn from you. You learn from me that we have the shared humanity that's really important." And so I think that our service activities at Hamlin are often rooted--our book drive--they're often rooted in trying to level the playing field. When we collect all those books every year, those are distributed to children who don't have them. That's making the world a more inclusive place when it comes to literacy, because we're saying, "No one should be without books."
So these activities and Community Services service learning our way in which we engage in making the world a more inclusive place. I'm always open to, to more ideas.
Matilda Fletcher
And how are you trying to promote inclusion at Hamlin?
Ms. Holland Greene
Oh, goodness, in everything that I do, and that's everything from what we spend our money on to who's admitted to Hamlin, to how we support our families, to what kind of culture we have. So every family feels that they have a voice in every single thing that I do in how I write about things--even when I talk about COVID, and I talk about who has been disproportionately impacted by COVID--it's people have color, poor people--and how I talk about the world. I try to model of being being a conscious and compassionate person, as a leader. I try to think about equity. And everything that I do, there's a group of parents at Hamlin who are the Board of Trustees; they help me think about diversity and equity in every aspect. I think about how teachers are trained, so that they can create equitable classrooms. I think about the school's resources. I think about our new building.
As we build them, one of the questions I have asked continually is, "How can our new buildings be inclusive?" Maybe on the weekends or summers, we open them up for different kinds of organizations outside of Hamlin to use them. If we have a gym and we're not going to be using it on Saturdays and Sundays, maybe someone else can. Maybe another group will want to rehearse their show in our new theater or maybe even perform it. Maybe we'll rent our new dining room out to people who run nonprofits, who don't always have enough money to rent a fancy hotel somewhere.
Even right now, I'm having conversations with my colleagues who run independent schools and asking how can we help the public schools? We marched right past an empty public school on our Halloween parade. How can we as independent schools, be more inclusive and help the children who are not yet back in school? So that's another way I like, what resources What time? What availability? What, what, what can we do to help all children in our city have access to an excellent education? You know, I can't make Hamlin bigger and shut down all the other schools, so how do we help in ways that are respectful? How do we help other schools pursue excellence?
Then I think this will probably be my last question. How are you planning to spend the diversity funds from the recent fundraiser?
A big part of it is going to professional development for the teachers, so that they can get better. And we're using an organization called Teaching Tolerance. And I don't love the word tolerance, because it's like you have to endure people or tolerate them. But that's not my name. It's the name of the organization, and they do really good work. And we have some consultants also, who are working with us alongside teaching tolerance to help the teachers really think about their curriculum, and think about how they teach not just what they teach. Some of the funds are going to support teachers attendance at conferences, like the People of Color Conference, which is, of course virtual now.
But it's important that we support teachers and their learning. I always say that if you see a school where the students have stopped learning, chances are it's because the teachers have stopped growing and learning. So school needs to be a vibrant place for teachers as well as for the students. Aside from conferences and professional development to get better at teaching with an anti bias approach, there may in fact be the purchases of materials that we might need. Let's say we find we want better globes and maps and better textbooks and you know, other kinds of materials. We've spent some money on some new library books, just to again, keep refreshing the collection. And I also wonder, I was saying to Dr. Schroeder, and Miss Hall, maybe there'll be some speakers that we might be able to bring. There's sometimes speakers, they can't fly to, well, they could fly. But you know, they can't we don't have visitors on campus right now, they can't come onto campus, but maybe somebody really intriguing an author or someone who's an activist or politician, or someone might be willing to spend some time with us, but we have to pay them a fee. I'm thinking maybe there'll be some speakers, too.
And I'm really open to ideas, I guess. Part of the downside of this pandemic is that we can't gather. And so some of the funds, I hope, once we are able to gather will be spent on bringing us together for different purposes, maybe we'll do--how much fun would it be to do a student conference, a middle school diversity conference, right with, we're bringing kids from all schools together and workshops and talking about how middle schoolers can make a change in the world. And you all know that I believe that you can. And but of course, until then, you know, we can't bring people from different schools into our space, but I'm thinking that we might do some student-centered activities, as well as some field trips would also be great. We're able to do that.
Ms. Holland Greene
How would you like me to spend some of that money?
Matilda Fletcher
I think that the training is a good idea, I suppose. And I think that getting the accurate and more inclusive materials is a very good idea. And just like making sure I don't know, this is this might not have to do with like, the fun but like, maybe you could go into a--like not you but like something, maybe you--someone could go into a classroom every now and then and just see if there's something that seems like a little off, like someone's not getting called on or something like that. Like, I know, I had that problem a couple of years ago. I don't know. Yeah, it was a couple years ago, like just to see like, what's going on and something that then you could like, tell them that stuff like that, that might not be necessarily related to the fund.
Ms. Holland Greene
But just the practice of doing things I know, that's one of the things when we are talking with teachers about. We want to be when when supervisors like Dr. Schroeder and Miss Hall walk into a classroom, or Mr. Taylor-Fabe as the associate division head--when they walk into a classroom, what they want to do is to be looking at all aspects of teaching. And one of the things they do look at is whether or not the teacher, obviously, whether they know their stuff, right? And doing a good job teaching the content, but also setting a tone in the classroom where everybody feels seen and known and included. Again, remember I said talking about implicit bias, sometimes you don't even know that you keep missing someone or that you're cutting them off, or that you have certain expectations. And when a good observer that that you trust gives you that feedback, you might go, "Oh, I hadn't even noticed that. I bet i've you know, switch that up and change it up."
So I think you're right. It's not necessarily where professional development funds are going to be spent on that observation, but it may be spent on the teacher who says, "Well, I'm gonna go to a workshop now and do some more exploration of that, because I didn't realize that was happening, and I want to be more culturally competent." So that's absolutely something to think about.
I'm really proud of Hamlin. I think we have grown and changed in so many important ways, but this work is never done. And as soon as you think it's done, that's the beginning of the end. This is the kind of thing where you--remember that Lego set, I was talking to you about putting together--I'm not sure that you ever put the last piece in and then you go great, we're now done. We're always a more perfect union. Now that the last piece is snapped into place, I do think that we need to be putting more pieces into place, because I feel like there's a lot that's spilled out and not connected and included.
Then once you get there, you got to keep tweaking it; you got to keep tightening it; you got to keep watching it. Because if we're not careful, we can drift away from the things we really want. And, you know, I have to believe that more people in the world want inclusion and justice than don't. I'm an optimist; as an educator, I'm an eternal optimist, so I believe that love wins--in the end. I just do. I have to, because if I don't believe that, then I'll just bury my head, and I'm not a person who buries my head. I'm a person who lifts my head up and leads, and I want the world to be better.
Do you feel like you have enough but you're not sure. If there's anything that you listen back to and you're like, wait, I didn't get that, just feel free to let me know. I'm really proud of you Matilda Fletcher. Your voice is so strong and so committed. It makes me really happy to know that you're a Hamlin girl using your written word and your spoken word to change the world. I'm glad you're roaring.
Matilda Fletcher
Thank you, bye.
Ms. Holland Greene
Bye bye, darling.
Originaly published 02/12/2022
